Wednesday, July 6, 2011

Because my comment was more than 4096 characters...

Just some thoughts...

First, I am not a Calvinist. I do not follow John Calvin. I do, however, believe the Doctrines of Grace, which Calvin held to. He also held to some Catholic teachings like infant baptism which is why I am not a follower of Calvin.

Second, Jacob Arminius, the father of free will teachings, was actually a follower of John Calvin's teachings in his early years. Later, he wondered about verses like 1 Timothy 2:4 and thought that surely "all" means every man woman and child. He began teaching that 1. Men have a free will, 2. That election was conditioned upon God foreseeing a man's faith, 3. That justification was made possible for all men through Christ's death, but was completed upon a man putting his faith in Christ, 4. That God's grace is resistible, and 5. That preservation is conditioned upon continued faith in Christ.

Toward the end of his life he recanted his teachings and returned to the doctrines of grace. Check me out and make sure I am right.

Well after his death, his followers wrote a paper or thesis stating the five points of their beliefs. Those who held to Calvin's teachings read it and wrote a five point re-buttle that came to be known as TULIP. All this took place well after Calvin and Arminius were gone. TULIP is simply an organized way of writing the doctrines of grace which were held to by many Christians, particularly Baptists, long before the days of John Calvin or his followers.

 Third, In 1 Timothy 2:4 when Paul wrote, in reference to God, "Who WILL have ALL men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth," did Paul mean every man, woman and child without exception?  If the word "all" means every one without exception, then how does that compare with Isaiah 46:9-11?

 In that passage, Isaiah writes of God..."My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:" He goes on to say, "I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it."

There is a principle here...God carries out His will. Now, if His will in 1 Timothy 2:4 is that every man, woman and child be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth, then every man, woman and child will be saved.

Unfortunately, we know that not everyone has been saved, nor will be. That being the case, then we must conclude that God's will has not been accomplished. If His will has not been accomplished then we might as well mark out Isaiah 46 because man's will is sovereign over God's will.

Fourth, Jesus Christ, Himself, in John 6:37 said, "All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out."

We know that not ALL men will come to Christ. If it was God's will that all men be saved then all men would come to Christ.

I am convinced that the "all" in 1 Timothy 2:4 is the very same "all" in John 6:37-39 and that they were given to Christ by God the Father before the foundation of the world according to Ephesians 1:4-6.

Fifth, I do not believe that 2 Peter 3:9 is written to mankind in general. I believe it was written to believers...the elect of God. God is patient or longsuffering to the elect, not willing that any of them should parish, but that all of them should come to repentance...and they will because God accomplishes His will.

Again, if God is not willing that any person (meaning  all of mankind) should perish then according to Isaiah 46, they would not perish because God carries out His will.  However, we know that many have already perished and many will perish.

It all boils down to this... Is God's will sovereign over man, or is man's free will sovereign over God?

...ok, so a few thoughts turned into many.

Bro. Leland, Even though we don't agree on these passages, I still highly respect you. One thing is for sure, we do agree that Jesus Christ is the way, the truth and the life and that no man comes to the Father but by Him and Him alone.

To the lost person... if God has revealed to you that you are a sinner before a Holy God and are under His wrath, then come to Christ. He will in no way cast you out.

3 comments:

  1. I like your title for this post.

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  2. I didn't know these comments limited you to 4,096 characters.

    Here's my questions regarding TULIP.

    Total Depravity - We both agree that man cannot save himself, and we agree that without God drawing man, he is not going to seek after God. However, if man is incapable of making a decision to respond to God's drawing or reject it, then why did John the Baptist and Jesus preach repentance?

    Unconditional election - 1 Peter 1:2 says that we are elect (chosen) according to the foreknowledge of God. I believe that God did look down through eternity and see who would respond to his drawing, and he elected them, predestined them, called them, justified them, and glorified them (Romans 8:28-30)

    Limited Atonement - Our difference over this doctrine centers over our definition of "the whole world" in 1 John 2:2, " And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world."

    Irresistible Grace - If God would have all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth (1 Timothy 2:4), He could impart His irresistible grace upon them and save everyone. Now I understand your argument that if God was willing that all be saved, and some went to hell because they rejected His grace, then man's will would supercede God's will. We both know that in no way will man's will ever supercede God's will... but what if God's will were for those who reject His grace to go to Hell?

    Preservation of the Saints - This is security of the believer. I actually agree with this one.

    As we've discussed before, we both know that salvation begins and ends with God, that His will supercedes man's will, and without God's drawing him, man will not seek God. We just differ on some of the finer details.

    And if you are reading this and you don't know Jesus Christ as your Savior, whether I'm right, or Bro. Dodson is right, is of no consequence. If you feel convicted for your sin, repent and place your faith in Jesus Christ for salvation. He will save you.

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  3. Okay. So I had more comments than questions. I still enjoy the discussion.

    :)

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